Originally published in The Clarinet 51/4 (September 2024).

Copies of The Clarinet are available for ICA members.

---

GOLDEN SUNSET
An Interview with
Karl Leister

In this wide-ranging interview by Robert Taylor, German clarinet legend Karl Leister discusses the influence of his father, playing in the Berlin Philharmonic under von Karajan, his favorite clarinet repertoire, and much more.

by Robert Taylor

---

It is not an exaggeration to say that Karl Leister’s playing has influenced multiple generations of clarinet players. As a young clarinet student, I first heard Karl Leister on one of his recordings at a clarinet lesson during my senior year of high school. It was the Brahms Clarinet Quintet with the Amadeus String Quartet. I was almost immediately star-struck. The sound he created and the fluid manner of his playing made a huge impact on me and how I wanted to play going forward. I attended the 1978 Toronto International Clarinet Clinic where I heard his live performances of the Mozart and Brahms quintets. This concert only furthered my resolve to try and emulate some of his ideas in my playing. Fast forward to 1993. I compiled a complete (at the time) discography of his recordings and presented it to him after a Berlin Philharmonic concert at Carnegie Hall in October of 1993. The conversation that ensued over a couple of beers with “the Maestro” led to my first interview with him. This interview and discography was published in The Clarinet (vol 22, nos. 1 & 2), and I plan to publish an updated discography later this year at clarinet.org. I went on to become a close friend of Herr Leister. We traveled together in Italy (where I attended and performed for his master classes for five consecutive years), Germany, and the wine country of California. Thirty years on, I felt it was necessary to revisit “Maestro” (I never use his first name out of respect) and conduct another interview. With the prodding of my friends Bill Blayney and Pat Takahashi-Blayney, the three of us set out for Berlin to visit my old friend and talk about his 74-year career as a musician.

ROBERT TAYLOR: Thank you, Herr Leister, for meeting us today. It is so wonderful to be able to come here and talk with you.

KARL LEISTER: Robert, thank you very much for coming.

RT: I want to start with your early years in Berlin and when you started on the clarinet.

KL: After the Second World War we were living in Neukölln (suburb of Berlin). This was a place where the workers live. This area was not exclusive like here near my house now. We had a flat with two rooms. Our kitchen room was for five people. So three kids were living in one room, me and my brother and sister. We sometimes had nothing to eat. This was a very difficult time. And this was the reason why we tried so early as possible to stand on our own feet. We wanted to move away from this place as it was not very convenient.

RT: What music and technical studies did you play as an early student?

KL: I played Kroepsch and Baermann studies. The music literature came later. Baermann was my clarinet foundation, so to speak. I practiced every day. I still was in primary school. My Papa was my first teacher. My Papa said, “Now you have to try the clarinet.” And it was forbidden to say “no” to your papa. This is part of my generation. Today it is very different. So then, I started at 12 years old. I don’t know which actual instrument. I had an old Rudolph Uebel clarinet. Later my Papa said, “Now, you need a real teacher,” when I was 14 or 15. And this was Heinrich Geuzer. He was the solo clarinet player in the RIAS Symphony Orchestra Berlin. My Papa played bass clarinet in this same orchestra. Today it is called the Deutsche Symphony Orchestra. My father was one of the first members of this orchestra. I never tried to play the bass clarinet. But, my Papa gave me the very first lessons on the normal clarinet. Then I attended the Hochschule für Musik in Berlin. I was 15 and I was at a very early age to be a student at this school. So, I went to the music school and I played for Heinrich Geuzer. He explained to my father, “What do you want? He can play everything. He is wonderful.” Then Papa said, “No, he has to learn a lot. That’s the point why he is coming to you.”

RT: Who had the most influence on your playing early on?

KL: It was my Papa first. Because I will never forget the sound of his bass clarinet. And this was the reason why I also wanted this kind of sound on the normal clarinet.

RT: That was your fantasy at this time?

KL: Yes. I studied from 15 years old until I was 19 and a half. At this time I got the solo position at Opera Comique Berlin. I came home after the audition which was the birthday of my mother. I said, “Mama, I have a present for you. I’m the solo clarinet of the Opera Comique Berlin now.” This is not normal for a person that is 19 years old. My Papa had to sign the contract because you were not considered an adult until you were 21.

RT: So, you had to be 21 to work?

KL: Yes, my Papa had to sign in my contract.

RT: Do you remember anything about that audition? What you had to play?

KL: Yes, the Mozart concerto. Then some studies from famous orchestra parts. At the end, they put some music on the music stand. It was Janacek’s Schlaue kleine Füchsin (Cunning Little Vixen opera). This music I never saw before. I said, “This is not fair.” This was my first audition. I immediately got this position. Then they asked me after the audition, “We have three rehearsals of Die verkaufte Braut (The Bartered Bride) by Smetana. Can you play this?” I said, “Yes I can play this.” I had no idea what was coming. [laughter] I played this opera 37 times in just two and a half years.

RT: So you were the only solo clarinet? Or did they have two positions?

KL: Yes, two positions, but the other player I don’t remember.

RT: So then, your big break. You went to the Berlin Philharmonic.

KL: Yes, this was in 1958. My Papa said, “There is a free position in the Berlin Philharmonic.” I explained to my Papa, “This is not possible. I’m not good enough!” And my Papa said, “You will play because this chance comes only once in your life!” And he was right. And once more, no protest to the Papa. It was December 27, 1958. I got the position at the Berlin Philharmonic and started in September of 1959. The first rehearsal was Beethoven number five. I was playing this rehearsal before I got the solo position. That’s because they wanted to hear how I played.

RT: This was with Karajan?

KL: Yes. Karajan was at the audition. He had only one vote. We had four members of the Berlin Philharmonic on the audition committee, not five like it is today. When I finished my probation year, then the whole orchestra voted for my position, but during this vote three members voted against me, only three. This was the clarinet section. But the rest of the orchestra was for me. But later I explained to my clarinet colleagues, “Don’t worry, I’m not angry about this.”

RT: Who were the other members of the clarinet section at this time?

KL: At this time the second clarinet player was Alfred Bürkner. He started out as the solo clarinet player under Furtwängler. Later the orchestra decided that he was not good enough to play solo parts and he was moved to the second position. I got his original solo position when I joined in 1959. Alfred Bürkner played on a set of Oskar Oehler clarinets. These instruments played too low in pitch. He tried to adjust these instruments but they never played in tune. It was a terrible situation.

RT: In the 1960s, who was the other solo clarinet player with you in the Berlin Phil?

KL: It was Herbert Stähr. He was born in the same hospital in Wilhemshaven, Germany, as me!

RT: I think the most powerful and popular recording with Karajan and Berlin Phil was the 1963 Beethoven symphony cycle. You played on these recordings?

KL: Yes, and the critics said it was the best recordings of the Beethoven symphonies. We recorded the Beethoven symphonies three more times. Also films for Sony, but the first 1963 recordings are the best. This was the greatest present in my life to be together with Karajan. We were together 30 years.

RT: People always wonder about equipment, reeds, mouthpieces, and things like that. It was a tradition for German clarinet players to make their own reeds. Is that right? Did you make your own reeds?

KL: Never. My time was important for me to practice, not to make reeds. I had a man who made reeds for me. But for the last 40 years I play on Vandoren reeds. I played on White Master, Black Master, 56 Rue Lepic, V12, and now V21. People at Vandoren said, “Mr. Leister always has the same sound. It doesn’t matter which reed he plays.” This is a wonderful compliment, but also a compliment for Vandoren.

RT: I think you told me once when you were young, you had one reed every month?

KL: Yes, because in the beginning, when I started there was a man in Potsdam (suburb of Berlin), who made reeds and I had to pay one German mark, this was very expensive. One German mark for one reed per month.

RT: This was when you were a young child?

KL: This was before I got the solo position in the Berlin Comique Opera, yes. I had no more money. Players today are crazy. They think the problem is the reeds. No, the problem is with their playing.

RT: Did you ever use a wooden mouthpiece?

KL: Yes, I had a wooden mouthpiece from the maker Kolber. I think I have this here somewhere.

RT: Which brands of clarinets have you played during your career?

KL: I must explain a wonderful story from when I was 17. Near the place where my Papa was living, there was a shop for furniture. He walked by one time and saw in the window a clarinet standing on a table in the window. He went into the shop but he didn’t explain who he was. He said, “What is this clarinet there on the table?” The shop keeper said, “This is a clarinet people buy to make a lamp.” My Papa said, “Is it a B-flat or an A clarinet?” The shopkeeper said, “This is a B-flat, but we have also an A clarinet.” They had both so neither were sold yet. These instruments I got from my Papa when I was 17 years old. F. Arthur Uebel was the maker. The instruments were made from cocobolo wood. I played on these when I started with the Berlin Philharmonic, also on the first Brahms Quintet recording for Deutsche Grammophon. And I still have these instruments. The sound is wonderful. These instruments are from 1935. The cost of this set of instruments when my Papa bought them was 600 German marks. This was very expensive, but Papa bought them and gave them to me. We didn’t have very much after the Second World War. We were quite poor.

RT: When did you begin using Wurlitzer clarinets?

KL: I started with Wurlitzer I think in the ’60s. At this time, you had to wait two and a half years to get a set of clarinets from Wurlitzer.

RT: It was only Herbert Wurlitzer who made them?

KL: Yes, he was the best instrument maker. He died the same year as Karajan. Later I bought more instruments from Wurlitzer. And I still have the set from 1979 pitched in A=440. This set was used for the Mozart Concerto recording with the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields orchestra with Neville Marriner.

RT: You have your own edition of the Mozart Concerto?

KL: Yes, this is with an Italian publisher. [Edizioni Musicali Eufonia Nr.01149]

RT: You mentioned once that you also played E–flat clarinet. There’s a very famous recording of you playing the Ravel Daphnis et Chloe on E-flat clarinet. So, can you tell us about that?

KL: Yes, in the Berlin Phil I also had to play E-flat clarinet. That was difficult when Karajan programmed Beethoven’s 6^th symphony on the first half and then Stravinsky’s Le Sacre du Primtemps on the second half. I had to change instruments. Today it seems very easy, you know? Walther Seifert (retired E-flat clarinet with the Berlin Philharmonic) studied with me. He learned from me how to play the E-flat clarinet. I was for him a wonderful example of playing E-flat.

RT: How often did you play E-flat clarinet for the orchestra?

KL: Karajan programmed Ravel’s Bolero and I played both B-flat and E-flat clarinet. I also played both the first clarinet and the E-flat part in Berlioz’s Symphonie Fantastique. I also played Richard Strauss’s Till Eulenspiegel and Ravel’s Piano Concerto for the Left Hand. It was my pleasure to play so much E-flat clarinet. I was practicing one time at home with the windows open. A woman neighbor said, “Your flute is wonderful.” I said, “Don’t explain this to my colleagues!”

RT: So it sounds like you played a lot of the E–flat clarinet repertoire.

KL: Yes, and Herbert Stähr [also 1^st clarinet in the Berlin Philharmonic at the same time as Karl Leister] also played E-flat sometimes. However I played E-flat more often on average. We were playing Till Eulenspiegel and Alfred Bürkner was scheduled to play E-flat for it but he died prior to the concert. It was terrible. I was at this time at the dentist. I had been given a shot of novocaine. Horst Stein, the conductor for this concert, telephoned my wife. She explained that I was at the dentist. Mr. Stein said, “If you don’t play, I will cancel the concert.” Finally in the afternoon, the novocaine had worn off and I could play.

RT: Did you ever play in Bayreuth for the Wagner Festival?

KL: They asked me sometimes but I never did this. I was always playing concerts in Japan in the summer. We did a lot of Wagner operas with Karajan for the Easter Festival, but we never performed the opera Tannhauser. You know why?

RT: No.

KL: Tannhauser was originally written for the Paris Opera. In this version of the opera the overture is not performed. It is replaced with the Venusburg music. Wagner’s staging of this music section includes naked women on stage. Karajan said that the Catholic Bishop of Salzburg would not allow this to be performed because of this staging.

RT: Karajan did Wagner’s Ring cycle. Did you play on those recordings?

KL: Yes, we made the recordings here in Berlin at the Jesus-Christus Church.

RT: You did all four operas of the Ring cycle?

KL: He didn’t begin with Das Rheingold. He said this was the beginning or Prelude. For the first Easter Festival Karajan gave his own money. He paid for everything. The government said this opera would not be successful. So he started with Die Walküre. And then he did Das Rheingold. And after the first two operas were done for two festivals, Karajan explained to the government that if you do not pay for the other two opera productions he would not return to Salzburg. We were there more than 30 years for the Easter Festivals.

RT: How was Karajan able to create an atmosphere with the orchestra?

KL: We always said, whenever one goes into the Berlin Philharmonic Hall you got the feeling that Karajan was there. It took six years total to build the Berlin Philharmonic Hall. That was the wish of Karajan. The architect for this building was Hans Schauron (1893-1972). He decided not to do a shoe box style for the hall, but a hall in the round. It was known as “Karajan’s Circus” because the hall looks like a circus tent from the outside. It was built in a unique manner for its time. Later, many newer halls did the same. It was the greatest present for Berlin. Karajan said, “The shape of the hall points to God.”

RT: Tell me about your honorary degree from the Royal Academy of Music, London.

KL: I was appointed to be an honorary member of the Music Academy in London when I was 50 years old. This appointment was signed by Prince Charles. I was teaching there for a while but not very long.

RT: Did you enjoy that time?

KL: It was wonderful. I was also solo clarinet of the Saito Kinen Orchestra (Japan) for 30 years with Seiji Ozawa. I played very much.

RT: Can you tell us about playing chamber music during your career?

KL: Yes, the first recording was the Beethoven Trio op. 11 with Wilhelm Kempf and Pierre Fournier. We did the recording in Switzerland in a theater.

RT: And what are some other special chamber music moments for you?

KL: With the Bläser der Berliner Philharmoniker, I played all the Mozart music for small wind ensemble, sextets, octets, and the Gran Partita. We made over one hundred recordings. I did several recordings of the Brahms Quintet.

RT: Singers often come back to one work like Schubert’s Die Winterreise. You always come back to the Brahms quintet.

KL: Brahms was always for me wonderful to play. The first wonderful recording was with the Amadeus Quartet. The critics said this one is the best recording ever done. When I made the Brahms Clarinet Quintet recording with the Amadeus Quartet, Norbert Brainin, the first violinist said, “Mr. Leister, if you play so soft we cannot come down that softly.” I said, “Mr. Brainin, you only need to use one hair of your bow.” [laughter] I waited 18 years before I made the next recording with the Vermeer Quartet. Then next was with the Berliner Solisten, then the Brandis Quartet. The final recording was with the Leipzig Quartet.

RT: Is it said an artist “owns” a particular piece of music. Pavarotti, for example, owns “Nessun Dorma” from Puccini’s Turnadot. Karl Leister owns the Brahms Quintet. Would you agree?

KL: Yeah, but also the Mozart Concerto with Neville Marriner. The critics always say “This is your best recording on the market.”

RT: You retired from the Berlin Phil in 1993?

KL: Yes, I gave up the position with the Berlin Philharmonic. I’m not sure that I would have left if Karajan was still alive. The Musik Hochschule Hans Eisler here in Berlin created a teaching position for me. I taught there for nine years after I left the orchestra. I think it was good to change to the teaching position. I was 56 at the time. Normally one doesn’t get a position like this if you are over 50. But they made everything possible for me to get this position.

RT: Also, during this time in the 1990s you made a lot of recordings with the recording company Camerata Tokyo?

KL: Yes, I made 60 recordings.

RT: You had a commission from the Japanese composer Nishimura for a Clarinet Concerto. Can you tell me about the composition?

KL: Yes, he composed for me a clarinet concerto, clarinet quintet, and a solo piece. So there’s a CD on the Camerata recording label from Japan.

RT: Is the music very difficult?

KL: It’s quite difficult.

RT: And it’s very different from your typical playing style. People would think this is not Karl Leister! You also have done many master classes?

KL: Yes, I was invited to Italy, the United States, also Japan.

RT: In many of your master classes, you tell students not to use their tongue. Can you explain more about what you mean by that?

KL: I can make a staccato with only my breath. This is for the sound, which is much better.

RT: So I think it’s fair to say that you are a fantastic musician who plays the clarinet.

KL: You must know that what I learned as a musician came from working with Karajan for 30 years.

RT: Was there ever a time when you wished maybe in another life, you would play a different instrument and not the clarinet?

KL: No, it was always the clarinet.

RT: You always told me that there’s a secret to the clarinet. So, what is its secret?

KL: The secret of the clarinet is the sound. There is no instrument like the clarinet which has a wide dynamic range and such a wonderful sound. We have the greatest literature compared to all the other woodwind instruments.

RT: So many composers discovered the clarinet late in life, Mozart, Brahms, and Reger to name a few.

KL: Yes, my explaining is that the clarinet is the angel of death. So many composers wrote for the instrument very close to their death is what I mean. The important character of this instrument has to do with the colors. In the low part of the instrument, it represents the darkness of the night time and in the upper registers we have wonderful sunshine.

RT: Do you have any final thoughts, Maestro?

KL: My musician life has been 74 years long. I am still very happy to practice my instrument. This is the greatest pleasure I have still and I like to do it. I hope that I can do it for some more years to come.

[Editor’s Note: A prior version of this article listed Herbert Stähr as the clarinetist that Karl Leister had to replace after receiving a shot of novocaine from his dentist earlier in the day. This article has been updated to reflect that Alfred Bürkner was the clarinetist Leister replaced, and Till Eulenspiegel was the piece performed.]

---

Robert Taylor is the founder, artistic director, and clarinetist with the Madison,
Wisconsin-based chamber music ensemble con vivo! music with life…, which has performed at Carnegie Hall and toured in Germany. He has studied with Karl Leister and performed in the Berliner Philharmonie under Sir Simon Rattle. He received a bachelor’s degree in music from University of Wyoming and a master’s degree in music from Michigan State University.